<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1335</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/11/99 3:49:55 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 11 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1335<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
Re: Travshorts II<BR>
Other lists (was: Re: Vilani Dictionary)<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Exoticon II Attendees?<BR>
Re: Other lists (was: Re: Vilani Dictionary)<BR>
Re: Read all about it ! Sixth Frontier War! It's Official! (... or not)<BR>
Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
Re: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Getting in touch w/ Jesse...<BR>
Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
Re: Zhodani<BR>
re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
Re: Evolution (was ...and the drifting generation ship)<BR>
Re: Cultures<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Re: Cultures<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
Re: Zhodani Govt.<BR>
Pacifist groups in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:09:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Generation Ship in SF (was Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard wrote:<BR>
>>There's another one that I can't recall the author of. It's got a<BR>
>>pseudo Aztec culture living in a mountain valley. And then our hero<BR>
>>decides to break the taboos and go exploring. He climbs the monutains<BR>
>>and finds that they touch the sky! Turns out the "valley" is the inside<BR>
>>of a generation ship. I can't recall why the passengers were handled<BR>
>>that way.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I haven't seen this answered (except by people suggesting it was a Star<BR>
> Trek episode) but I think you may have been thinking of Harry Harrison's<BR>
> 'Captive Universe'.  Only the book's in the attic at home and I'm at work<BR>
> so I can't easily check!<BR>
<BR>
I think you may have the answer. That sounds about right. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:56:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Travshorts II<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> > >Go ahead and laugh, human. The Electron Liberation Front will have it's<BR>
>> > >revenge!<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >ELF, eh? I thought they were limited to aquatic operations.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Mmm... Elf...  The other white meat....<BR>
><BR>
> You leave Mr. Sternberg out of this.<BR>
><BR>
> Marc Miller wouldn't approve.<BR>
<BR>
Probably not, on the other hand, consider an alternate timeline where<BR>
Pendor exists, but doesn't "decloak" until the time of the Third<BR>
Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:30:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Other lists (was: Re: Vilani Dictionary)<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> I know about the traveller culture list.<BR>
<BR>
What other Traveller lists are there, and how do I subscribe to them?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:37:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson replied to a post by Carlos Alos-Ferrer:<BR>
> I'm confused. Is it inappropriate because it glorifies violence-which<BR>
> never happens in any traveller universe-or because it has a subtle nod<BR>
> to patriotism and nationalism?<BR>
<BR>
Please... all of you... no flames. I started (well, it takes at least<BR>
two people, but...) a h#ll of a flamewar last time I was subscribed to<BR>
this list, and I would hate to see another war break out here, now that<BR>
I have finally returned. As some who were subscribed during that war<BR>
might recall about me, I would like to say a thing or two about this<BR>
thread.<BR>
<BR>
I don't.<BR>
<BR>
I have decided to keep my opinions to myself, and to keep my posts as<BR>
on-topic as possible (or, occassionally, at neutral, fun topics ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I suggest that everyone does the same.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
 Linkoeping, Sweden<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:36:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Exoticon II Attendees?<BR>
<BR>
Is anyone here planning to attend Exoticon II in Metairie (suburban New<BR>
Orleans), LA?  It's a relaxicon being held 19-21 November 1999.  More<BR>
info is available at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.exoticon.net<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we can cook up some k'kree boudin.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:42:33 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Other lists (was: Re: Vilani Dictionary)<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > I know about the traveller culture list.<BR>
> <BR>
> What other Traveller lists are there, and how do I subscribe to them?<BR>
<BR>
Well, there's the Imperial Ship Builders' Association (ISBA) list, for<BR>
those who are interested in entering The Highly Unofficial Democratic<BR>
Design Derby (THUDDD).  To subscribe to the list currently in use<BR>
(ISBA2), send an e-mail to:<BR>
<BR>
Majordomo@oasis.leo.org<BR>
<BR>
with the following phrase in the body of your message:<BR>
<BR>
subscribe isba<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:40:26 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Read all about it ! Sixth Frontier War! It's Official! (... or not)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:58:25 -0600, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> >On the other hand, it gives a great excuse to play "Rambo" and try for<BR>
>> >a rescue mission.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> How many does it take? Are one million POWs worth going to war for?<BR>
>> One hundred thousand? One? Where do you draw the line?<BR>
<BR>
I should note here that the whole idea just rose my hackles. The idea<BR>
of thousands of POWs being held after a war is over just ticks me off.<BR>
This is despite the fact that these POWs are imperials and I am of<BR>
course a loyal solomani. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>That, sir, depends on whether you have read, and agree with, _Starship<BR>
>Troopers_.<BR>
<BR>
Twice and yes.<BR>
<BR>
>I suspect that the Emperor and his advisors have not attended History<BR>
>and Moral Philosoph classes under LtCol DuBois et al, so I would expect<BR>
>the Imperium to consider a relative handful of PWs as a regrettable<BR>
>circumstance, rather than as a _casus belli_.<BR>
><BR>
>As far as mounting a rescue mission goes, that would depend on at least<BR>
>these two factors:<BR>
><BR>
>1.  Where are the PWs being held?<BR>
><BR>
>2.  How many PWs are being held there?<BR>
><BR>
>Given that "Colonel de Bessier maintains that from 2,000 to as many as<BR>
>10,000 Imperial personnel are held at a number of locations within the<BR>
>Zhodani Consulate, and that seven of these locations have been<BR>
>'positively identified'", I would expect that no rescue effort short of<BR>
>all-out invasion would be able to retrieve more than a handful of these<BR>
>PWs.  IMHO, it would be highly improbable that a successful rescue<BR>
>mission could be mounted on any site deeper than 5-6 parsecs inside<BR>
>Zhodani space.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, humans have the amazing ability to confound those who say<BR>
>something is impossible/improbable....<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:45:56 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:58:31 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>There was a RICE paper article that detailed Aslan "Trokh Ofera" <sp>, Aslan<BR>
>"talk opera". All in all a nifty idea. There was also a JTAS that detailed<BR>
>K'Kree scent-sculptures as part of an adventure. I'm sure that there are<BR>
>many more that I'm forgetting.<BR>
><BR>
There's the Darrian flame sculptures from Alien Module 8.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:56:22 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
<BR>
>From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Recovering disabled grav vehicles<BR>
><BR>
>Why do we need a separate vechile. Why can't we have a control module, and<BR>
>a series of standard grav lift modules of which are self powered.<BR>
>that you attach to the disabled vechile. The whole thing is controlled by<BR>
<BR>
  Is it just me, or isn't the issue of attaching these pods going to be<BR>
non-trivial, and potentially pretty damned exciting with all the power<BR>
cables running to the control module/crew cabin?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:59:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>So that's what armies are for. Wow! It's true, you do learn something new<BR>
>every day.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Methinks somebody wants to start a flamewar on this otherwise peaceful list.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm confused. Is it inappropriate because it glorifies violence-which never<BR>
>happens in any traveller universe-or because it has a subtle nod to<BR>
>patriotism and nationalism?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Any confusion is purely on your part. Carlos made it perfectly clear what it<BR>
was about the post that he objected to. A further note: violence never<BR>
actually happens in the Traveller Universe, as it is complete and total<BR>
fiction. Violence - that which leaves mothers crying for their children, and<BR>
that which leaves young men who have barely lived their lives screaming,<BR>
dying, cold and afraid with their entrails steaming in the mud - only<BR>
happens in the real world.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:46:57 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Getting in touch w/ Jesse...<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
Folks, Jesse is having ongoing ISP troubles and isn't currently receiving<BR>
the TML.  He hopes to have this ironed out *real* soon, but in the mean-<BR>
time, should any of you need to contact him, you should do so directly<BR>
via one of his e-mail addresses.  They are given as follows:<BR>
<BR>
> I can be reached (hopefully) at jdegraff@pacbell.net or at<BR>
> jesse_degraff@acer.com.  Make sure you include the underscore!<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:23:28 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Coke for Kiri (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Frank said (more or less):<BR>
>"A Canticle for Liebowitz"<BR>
=<BR>
>"A Coke for Kiri"<BR>
<BR>
I'd wondered if anyone else picked that up, or if it was just me...<BR>
<BR>
>"Flowers for Algernon"<BR>
<BR>
Wow! Another in the series - well-spotted! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In regards to "A Coke for Kiri":<BR>
<BR>
You'll have to make sure that the new book in the series is as haunting and<BR>
tragically beautiful as the first two...<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:37:53 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William wrote:<BR>
>Not particularly likely... there is no evidence of "sustained phenomena" in<BR>
>the rules nor in canon, nor is there any evidence of direct psionically<BR>
>active hardware (with the possible exception of Virus, but that's for<BR>
>another day/flame-war).<BR>
<BR>
Have you forgotten flick-switches? You could have an "active painting" that has<BR>
these in the back, set to change the painting's colours. An art event could<BR>
include visitors as active participants, each trying to set the painting up in a<BR>
certain way, with the resultant jumble of colours becoming the final work.<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani "Blue Poles", anyone??<BR>
<BR>
Now all you need is an Imperial museum that decides to buy the work for some<BR>
ridiculous amout of money, with the PC's sent to transport the painting across<BR>
the border (not knowing about the highly illegal flick switches built into the<BR>
thing), with rich Impy art collectors sending art pirates after them, etc etc...<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like an adventure to me!<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:47:08 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: re: Sixth Frontier War!<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Walt posed:<BR>
>To the "benevolent Zhodani" camp: are the Zho's warm and understanding<BR>
>psychotherapists to their loving proles, and evil mind-rapers to outsiders?<BR>
<BR>
Just another question for the 3257th Philosophy Battalion (the "Descartes<BR>
Demons") to ponder, eh Doug?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:40:36 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution (was ...and the drifting generation ship)<BR>
<BR>
Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So if I made this ship the size of a small moon I should have no problems.<BR>
<BR>
I have a very bad feeling about this.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
If at first you don't succeed, DON'T try Russian Roulette.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:50:06 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures<BR>
<BR>
>>         Anyone remember the cheesy sci-fi about the humans on the Arc?<BR>
><BR>
>Earthship Ark.  Had an actor that was later Chekov (SP?) didn't it?<BR>
<BR>
The series you're referring to is called The Starlost, a Canadian-produced<BR>
series from around 1973. It was awful. (Most Canadian-produced TV was awful<BR>
back then...).  The series was about three young people aboard a great big <BR>
huge starship, Earthship Ark, which was sent into space in response to some <BR>
kind of disaster back on Earth (I'm not sure we ever find out just what kind <BR>
of disaster it was.) The ship consisted of several dozen "biospheres" all<BR>
connected to a central "core" shaft that was probably at least 100 miles <BR>
long...<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, several hundred years later, the inhabitants of one of the biospheres,<BR>
a low-tech agrarian community, have for some reason forgotten that they are<BR>
on board a spaceship. Three young people from the biosphere manage to find <BR>
the exit into the rest of the ship and go exploring, and discover that they <BR>
are in fact aboard a great big huge spaceship -- and that the spaceship is<BR>
no longer under anyone's control and is on a collision course with a nearby<BR>
star. The series had our intrepid trio going from one biosphere to the next<BR>
looking for someone who knew how to regain control of the ship and avert the<BR>
collision.<BR>
<BR>
(Most of this is from memory, as it's been a couple of decades since I've<BR>
seen it...)<BR>
<BR>
A few bits of trivia about the series:<BR>
- - It was created by Harlan Ellison, who when he saw how bad the result was<BR>
asked for his name to be removed from the credits; the credits list the<BR>
series creator as "Cordwainer Bird", an Ellison pseudonym.<BR>
- - The star of the series was Keir Dullea, star of 2001 A Space Odyssey.<BR>
- - Co-star Robin Ward's voice can be heard narrating the second Twilight<BR>
Zone series, seen here and there in syndication. (This TZ series is the<BR>
one produced in the late 1980s.)<BR>
- - Walter Koenig appeared in two episodes as Oro, an alien who finds the<BR>
Ark and for some reason decides not to help. Had the series continued<BR>
into a second season, Oro would likely have appeared in a few more episodes.<BR>
Since this was 1973, this was after his work on the original Star Trek<BR>
series.<BR>
<BR>
This was a *bad* series, boys and girls. I keep hoping that Space, Canada's<BR>
cable SF channel, will pick it up...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:57:06 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
>> FW: (Fwd) FW: IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......In time for Remembrance<BR>
Day..... <BR>
><BR>
>Not to rain on your parade, but I read this list precisely, among <BR>
>other things, to forget that there is people out there who choose to <BR>
>be soldiers and are ready to kill those of us who choose peace. <BR>
<BR>
1. I always thought the job of our soldiers was to defend and protect<BR>
us against those who would kill those of us who choose peace. Were it<BR>
not for our soldiers (meaning all on the side of the Allies) in World<BR>
War II, this mailing list would likely not exist.<BR>
<BR>
2. Traveller is a game in which one of the most popular campaign types<BR>
involves mercenaries and other ex-military types. If you're wanting<BR>
to forget about soldiers, methinks you're on the wrong list. (No offence.)<BR>
<BR>
Be that as it may, the off-topic post to which you are responding did<BR>
not belong on this list in the first place, and the perpetrator should<BR>
be punished by being placed in the path of a near-c asteroid in the<BR>
company of female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:38:51 -0800<BR>
From: Richard Hough <corvus@telus.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultures<BR>
<BR>
At 11:09 AM -0500 11/10/99, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-diges wrote:<BR>
>  >         Anyone remember the cheesy sci-fi about the humans on the Arc?<BR>
><BR>
>Earthship Ark.  Had an actor that was later Chekov (SP?) didn't it?<BR>
<BR>
The Starlost, an extremely low-budget Canadian sci-fi TV series which <BR>
came out in 1973, after Star Trek. Walter Koenig was in several <BR>
episodes.<BR>
<BR>
I can understand why you thought it came out before Star Trek; the <BR>
effects were so primitive it looks like something made by a <BR>
high-school drama class.<BR>
<BR>
This program was the result of some hard work by eastern Canadian <BR>
sci-fi fans, who got Harlan Ellison to write the pilot and Douglas <BR>
Trumbull to produce it. Unfortunately, the budget could not meet <BR>
Ellison's vision for the series and he disavowed it. He even demanded <BR>
they change his name in the credits to "Cordwainer Bird".<BR>
<BR>
I remember reading an essay from someone involved with the series. <BR>
The budget constraints and clueless management were so extreme it was <BR>
funny. Ellison was in a huge argument with a "professional" <BR>
(non-sci-fi) writer who thought a "backup computer" was something <BR>
that made the spaceship fly in reverse.<BR>
- --<BR>
Richard Hough<BR>
rdhough@telus.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:42:08 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
- --- Carlos Alos-Ferrer <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Note: I am responding to one narrow aspect of Calos's statment and <BR>
totally respect his opinions, even any that I disagree with.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Not to rain on your parade, but I read this list precisely, among <BR>
> other things, to forget that there is people out there who choose to <BR>
> be soldiers and are ready to kill those of us who choose peace. <BR>
<BR>
As someone that served as a soldier, I can assure you that I did not,<BR>
and most soldiers do not, join the military to slay <BR>
those who choose peace. At least in the USA. I joined to protect <BR>
those who choose peace from those who choose otherwise. I disagree<BR>
strongly with the above opinion you hold on the narrow reasons <BR>
why someone would join the military and find it to be insulting. <BR>
I do not however, hold anything against Carlos for holding said <BR>
opinion. <BR>
<BR>
I have realized over the years that it is futile to <BR>
try to alter a strongly held opinion. So this is not an attempt at <BR>
a debate or a call for any kind of flame war. I game with Carlos <BR>
and respect him as a person. All I ask in return is the same <BR>
respect for my not wanting to be thought of as some kind of violent, <BR>
mindless brute bent on destroying everyone devoted to peace and <BR>
taking some umbrage from what was probably a hasty comment made on, <BR>
as he said, a bad day. In no way should this be mis-construed as <BR>
an attack on Carlos or any peace movement.<BR>
<BR>
That said, I appologize for any who feel my coments a waste of<BR>
bandwidth. <BR>
<BR>
On Topic Traveller:<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have any firm anti-violence groups active in their <BR>
Traveller universe? What d they do? How does the Imperium <BR>
see them?<BR>
<BR>
Terry <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:49:41 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cons On Ice Scenario Idea<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 11/8/99 7:43 AM, Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also didn't Behind the Claw alude to a group of RoM era stl ships heading<BR>
>> toward the Marches?<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, they did mention it.  Still no word on whether it's going to be<BR>
> used for official stuff, but most likely it's out there for us to<BR>
> play with.  Sounds like it would fit the scenario quite well,<BR>
> although I can't really see the Leader of the Cons completing the<BR>
> trip back to Terra without at least some serious consideration on his<BR>
> capacities to impact his former homeworld.  But it is food for<BR>
> thought....<BR>
<BR>
I just got BtC, and I love it! I agree that the STL craft (Long Night era,<BR>
Solomani markings) were probably put out for us to play with, but given a 45<BR>
year ETA, there is plenty of time for some TNS style updates on their<BR>
location/status and related stories as backdrop to a GT: Campaign book. I'd<BR>
say 3:1 odds that was a thought of SJG.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:20:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: How do fuel tanks work?<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 11/8/99 8:18 PM, cos90@powersurfr.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> .... you realize of course that I am making this up as I go along... :)<BR>
<BR>
Shhhhh, I'm suspending my disbelief. ;)<BR>
Actually, that's a very interesting idea...<swipe><BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:56:48 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
Okay, now please everyone calm down. Please remember everyone is<BR>
entitled to their own opinions, everyone is entitled to their own privacy, and<BR>
we don't need yet another pointless flame war on the ethics of war and<BR>
military service. The original post was (IMHO) off topic, inapproriate and<BR>
illconsidered (in that this was almost a guaranteed result). Can everyone<BR>
please remember that the pacifist who died in Dachau is just as dead and<BR>
just as worthy of respect as the private who died on Omaha beach. IMHO<BR>
the 11th of the 11th is best left for silence refection.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species who's females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:57:42 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Re: (OT) IN TIME FOR REMEMBRANCE......<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Terry Mixon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does anyone have any firm anti-violence groups active in their <BR>
>Traveller universe? What d they do? How does the Imperium <BR>
>see them?<BR>
<BR>
Scenario: The group has just been in their first fire-fight in an urban area,<BR>
          possibly destroing some building, cars and such. A local interstellar<BR>
	  anti-violence group starts stalking the group while in the local main<BR>
	  making demonstrations outside their hotell, getting in the way of<BR>
          their job, and making their lives high media profile (not in a good<BR>
          way :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Terry <BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:19:43 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani Govt.<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 11/9/99 11:47 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> To answer the obvious question, I am a "benevolent" Zhodani proponent. Such<BR>
> is required to have a functional society over six thousand years. The<BR>
> "malevelant" brain-sucking, Prole-enslaving Zhodani model is a good one for<BR>
> raw Space Opera enemies (who won't last more than a generation or two)<BR>
> because it is ideally suited to the "war-machine disguised as a functional<BR>
> society" type of state. If someone wants to use the Zhodani for that in their<BR>
> game that's fine, but don't try to convince me that it's true in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
I see it as somewhere between the two extremes and shifting a bit towards<BR>
one pole or the other. Very interesting stuff in these posts so far.<BR>
////////////////////////////////////////<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:48:41 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Pacifist groups in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
(I am not going to continue a non-Traveller discussion here. I just <BR>
won't let people think that such comments are welcomed by all - I <BR>
want them Off-list). Now, On Topic...<BR>
<BR>
> >Does anyone have any firm anti-violence groups active in their <BR>
> >Traveller universe? What d they do? How does the Imperium <BR>
> >see them?<BR>
> >Terry <BR>
<BR>
In my 3I (which I do not use much since I moved the area of play <BR>
Beyond The Extents), Delphi sector was heavily colonized by terrans <BR>
of asian origin. This gave a special twist to the later high <BR>
corporate influence in Margaret's Stronghold during the Rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
During an old FTF adventure, I introduced a pacifist movement <BR>
following (partly) in spirit Yukio Mishima's ideas, vaguely linked <BR>
to buddist religion. An Army without more weapons that those used for <BR>
ritual suicide, willing to die but not to kill, with the firm belief <BR>
that nobody has the right to take one life, except the own. They were <BR>
called "Life Fighters" or "Mishimans."<BR>
<BR>
They were sort of a peaceful resistance against the <BR>
growing corporate power. Their ritual, spectacular suicides as <BR>
protest for specific corporate acts (like causing planetary wars to <BR>
control mineral resources) received a disproportionate media coverage <BR>
and caused negative demand reactions among the consumers, eventually <BR>
forcing the corporations to pay attention to the movement.<BR>
<BR>
Some of their leaders made it into Margaret's counsel, which gave her <BR>
some politically acceptable excuses for her retreat policy (which was <BR>
actually caused by her focus in economics and ignorance of any <BR>
military art).<BR>
<BR>
They broke with Margaret after the Geoneecide, at the beginning of <BR>
Hard Times, when Margaret's followers started hunting down Geonee.<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1335<BR>
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